Recently "retired" software security legend Gary McGraw joins us for an unfiltered conversation with Jack at his farmhouse in rural Virginia.  Gary's walks us through the history of software security with his characteristic sharp humor and insights, sparing no "poser or pretender" along the path to today (including the term "app sec" itself). Beyond his impressive career in security, any conversation with Gary uncovers his diverse interests from his life as a musician to gardening, from reading fiction to writing textbooks. Jack's interview of Gary is no exception-- it paints a portrait as colorful as the man himself. This is the 4th and final episode in our app sec (er.... software) security series.